Before I came to SMU, I was working with the Peoples Association, and that's a community development organization. And I guess that is an association to garner people to come together, to work as a community, to bring back that kampong spirit and to serve the needs of the community. So I worked with the advisors to our grassroots organizations. And I've worked with the organization that has the Prime Minister as the Chairperson. And we meet rather regularly, every quarter for our board meetings. And there would be times when the Prime Minister would come and chair the meetings but most of the time it was chaired by the Deputy Chairman. He sets the direction and he is a Minister, usually the Minister. So I have served under at least 4 Ministers, and worked very closely with some of the politicians as well. So that was my life before I came to SMU.